Curse

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 29, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Before factions and moreso nightfall, almost every caster packed emanagement skills on his bar, a lot of these skills have (imo inadvertedly) been nerfed and then with the release of nightfall Izzy buffed glyph of lesser energy immensely to basically make all energy management completely obsolete.

Glyph lesser has since been nerfed but it's still ever so prevalent in the metagame, I don't really have a problem for glyph on eles because, well, they are largely balanced around spells with big energy costs and glyphs + attunements are needed to keep this up.

Glyph on other characters however means that instead of getting energy back people just ride on their natural regen and the recharge of their glyph, this (and a lot of nerfs) has essentially pushed energy denial out of the metagame which I think was a really bad thing for the game.

This is why I'm proposing the following skill changes:

Mesmer:

Domination Magic:

Energy Burn
Target foe loses (3..8) Energy and takes 12 damage for each point of Energy lost.
Cost 10 Energy, Activation time 2, Execute time 0.75, Recharge 20

Change back to 8 damage per point of energy and 4..10 energy loss.

Energy Surge
Target foe loses (3..8) Energy. For each point of Energy lost, that foe and all nearby foes take 12 damage.
Cost 10 Energy, Activation time 2, Execute time 0.75, Recharge 20

Change back to 8 damage per point of energy and 4..10 energy loss.

Power Leak
If target foe is casting a Spell or Chant, that skill is interrupted and target foe loses (5..20) Energy.
Cost 10 Energy, Activation time 1/4, Execute time 0.75, Recharge 12

Change recharge back to 15s.

Inspiration Magic:

Auspicious Incantation
For 20 seconds, the next Spell you use is disabled for an additional (10..5) seconds and you gain Energy equal to (110..200)% of that spell's Energy cost.
Cost 5 Energy, Activation time 1, Execute time 0.75, Recharge 25.

Change to 100..200% with a 30 energy cap and change the recharge to 15 seconds (trying to make it more active and less retarded with 25 energy spells.)

Drain Enchantment
Remove an Enchantment from target foe. If an Enchantment is removed, you gain (7..15) Energy and are healed for (40..120) Health.
Cost 10 Energy, Activation time 2, Execute time 0.75, Recharge 20

Change to 25 Recharge and Increase Energy gain to 10..25, remove heal change to 1 second cast.

Energy Drain
Target foe loses (2..9) Energy. You gain 2 Energy for each point of Energy the target lost.
Cost 5 Energy, Activation time 1, Execute time 0.75, Recharge 25

Change to 20 Recharge and change Energy steal to 1..10.

Ether Phantom
For 10 seconds, target foe has -1 Energy degeneration. If this Hex is removed prematurely, that foe loses (1..5) Energy.
Cost 5 Energy, Activation time 1, Execute time 0.75, Recharge 10

Change Duration to 20 seconds and Recharge to 5 seconds. (Making it a useful cover hex without being too overpowered)

Feedback
Target foe loses one Enchantment. If an Enchantment is removed in this way, that foe also loses (4..10) Energy.
Cost 10 Energy, Activation time 2, Execute time 0.75, Recharge 30

Change Energy Cost to 5 Energy and Recharge to 20 seconds. (Putting it more in line with comparable skills)

Inspired/Revealed Hex
Remove a Hex from target ally and gain (4..10) Energy. For 20 seconds, Inspired Hex is replaced with the Hex that was removed.
Cost 5 Energy, Activation time 1, Execute time 0.75, Recharge 0

Change energy gain to 5..12 and the duration to 15. (More interesting energy management)

Leech Signet
Interrupt target foe's action. If that action was a spell, you gain (3..15) Energy.
Activation time 1/4, Execute time 0.75, Recharge 30

Change to 25 Recharge.

Elementalist:

Energy Storage:

Glyph of Lesser Energy
For 15 seconds, your next 2 spells cost (10..18) less Energy to cast.
Cost 5 Energy, Activation time 1, Execute time 0.75, Recharge 30

Change to 5..18 Energy (keep 15 energy at 9 spec)

Still looking into emanagement skills from other professions, might expand this list later.

DIH49 · Oct 29, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Glyph on other characters however means that instead of getting energy back people just ride on their natural regen and the recharge of their glyph, this (and a lot of nerfs) has essentially pushed energy denial out of the metagame which I think was a really bad thing for the game.

Please expand in great detail on why this is bad for the game.

rii · Oct 29, 2007, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

Please expand in great detail on why this is bad for the game.

Whether it's relevant to the game, promoting energy management that requires awareness and (even if it's only minimal) micro-management (scanning for enchantments, hexes, targets to edrain) adds more to play than just waiting to press the gole button.

pah01 · Oct 29, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Energy Denial will not win you games[on its own!] against good players but when the mesmer is actually good it can get quite hard to hide energy as surges will land when you are casting. While playing as the mesmer or as the monk in this matchup is not as skill intensive as the melee vs prot matchup it nevertheless required skill to play and play against. This is a good thing for the game.

The other side of the coin is what happens if monks start to require energy management skills once again to function against a rebuffed energy denial.

Joe

rii · Oct 29, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Well then i guess they'll have to buff divine boon and offering of blood =.-

Vaga · Oct 29, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

Please expand in great detail on why this is bad for the game.

It's fueled a power creep in a few bars, the most obvious being the curse necro which used to have to run an elite to power it's hexes but now just runs glyph.

Overall I'd say it would make the game a lot more interesting although power leak would probably still be too strong at 15r. A lot of stuff has been balanced around glyph now though and I can't see Izzy turning away from that.

DIH49 · Oct 29, 2007, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Whether it's relevant to the game, promoting energy management that requires awareness and (even if it's only minimal) micro-management (scanning for enchantments, hexes, targets to edrain) adds more to play than just waiting to press the gole button.

Circularity much? I ask why it is bad for the game, you respond with "because the negation is good for the game!" Thanks for that. I would like to see someone explain to me why adding in all sorts of potential problem skills (not the least of which is supercharging skill bars- something that GoLE gets around nicely) is worth it. I would also point out that the claim "GoLE needs a nerf" and the claim "other emanagement needs a buff" are not the same claim, so just telling me that GoLE causes X, Y, and Z problems is not sufficient to support the other claim. So, I will restate my previous question:

Please expand in great detail on why this is bad for the game.

erk · Oct 29, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

It's fueled a power creep in a few bars, the most obvious being the curse necro which used to have to run an elite to power it's hexes but now just runs glyph.

Overall I'd say it would make the game a lot more interesting although power leak would probably still be too strong at 15r. A lot of stuff has been balanced around glyph now though and I can't see Izzy turning away from that.

Take a good look, how often do you see a curses necro in anything but RA since they nerfed the anti-melee? I would love to see them back as a norm in GvG, I am bored of playing B-Surge/Warder.

I am not a fan of pushing e-denial into the meta, it tends to slow the game down and make adrenal builds rule. If players have to start cramming their bars with skills to offset e-denial losses, then that's less skills left for doing what they were supposed to be doing.

So they whole game becomes lets spike the Mesmer first!

Greedy Gus · Oct 29, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

So they whole game becomes lets spike the Mesmer first!

Welcome to the last 2 years?

Dodo The Extinct · Oct 29, 2007, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Take a good look, how often do you see a curses necro in anything but RA since they nerfed the anti-melee? I would love to see them back as a norm in GvG, I am bored of playing B-Surge/Warder.

Hexes in gvg get boring really, really fast. The annoying thing about hex builds is that they are usually all or nothing. You need alot of hexes to make them viable, and that usually means mindless spamming.

If you want action, stop playing B-Surge and go to Mesmer

Vaga · Oct 30, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Curse necros don't take skill to play so they shouldn't be very viable in gvg, that said there are still plenty of builds with multiple curse necros in them although lately people have moved to clumsiness spammers in certain positions where a curse necro may have been before.

Lorekeeper · Oct 30, 2007, 01:37 AM // 01:37

i think the more complex we make energy the worse it will be... of course... adding more alternatives to classes like monks to manage their energy would in some ways be a good thing, since i like having more options. However...

Where the theoretical benefit of these alternatives fails, is their influence on the wider balance of the game. Having more alternatives means having more viable options, which means they all need to be balanced. Having less alternatives means less viable options which means less opportunity for imbalanced skill synergies and overpowered builds. Its not to say that balance cannot be achieved between a higher amount of alternatives... just by learning from our experience with GW... it just hasnt happened... over time the amount of viable builds has decreased, because instead of balancing overpowered skills and builds things get overnerfed... the sum effect of this balancing has reduced the total amount of viable builds, so keeping in line with the way this games balance has been steered id say... keep things simple, dont provide too many alternatives cos it will just cause problems.

i hope what i just said made sense, if not ill try reword it more clearly.

if the aim of adding more or better energy management into the game is to give monks a better position of pushing red bars up or keeping them up, i think this could be solved by slightly buffing key skills that they already use, make them more energy efficient...

signet of devotion --> increase healed amount and reduce recharge.

signet of rejuvenation --> remove attacking or casting clause + increase basic heal + reduce recharge time + increase cast time to 2 seconds (or add new clause which adds more healing if target ally is hexed or has a condition).

divine spirit -> reduce recharge to 30 seconds.

gift of health -> either reduce amount healed + reduce recharge to 3 seconds/4 seconds OR increase amount healed + increase recharge to 6 seconds.

dismiss condition -> add new clause... if target ally is suffering from 2 or more conditions and is enchanted you gain 2 energy.

im not saying all of these will drastically improve energy conditions for monks... theyre just examples of what i think could be done, to skills that already see much use instead of buffing unused ones from other classes.

Bankai · Oct 30, 2007, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Oh wow, you're actually trying to make Dismiss even stronger?

Cass · Oct 30, 2007, 10:17 AM // 10:17

I don't follow why you want to push energy denial but you propose nerfing the one mesmer skill that denies energy through skillful use (i.e., interrupting): Power Leak. Active play should be encouraged always.

Buffing E surge and burn to remove more energy just makes for simple play; they would be used in focused e-denial bars and thus become part of a spam chain. That's bad for the game IMO.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 30, 2007, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Buffing E surge and burn to remove more energy just makes for simple play; they would be used in focused e-denial bars and thus become part of a spam chain. That's bad for the game IMO.

As opposed to them being almost exclusively spike skills, I'd say this change is not so bad. By just spamming them you won't get very good results because you don't know how much energy your target is on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

Please expand in great detail on why this is bad for the game.

Maybe this thread should be coupled with the changes to healing prayers in the other thread I posted, but right now there is no way to shut casters down based (safe for maybe elementalists) on energy denial as they just ride of off their regen + glyph. I think this is a poor mechanic because what it involves is basically using your glyph every 31 seconds to get 2 free casts and ride off of your regen otherwise.

If active energy management skills were still used, this would be completely different, because instead of them giving free casts and using them on recharge, you actually have to look for an opportune target to use them on and they will give you energy rather than prevent you from using energy.

I think essentially removing energy denial from the metagame was bad for the game because to an extent it made 'energy levels' irrelevant, instead of having to hide your energy to avoid being denied (=micro = good for the game) you just wait for your glyph to get back if you're somehow 'pressed for energy'.

Although I don't think the suggested skillchanges will make energy denial a huge issue, but merely, a better way to deal with the energy management options.

DIH49 · Oct 30, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Maybe this thread should be coupled with the changes to healing prayers in the other thread I posted, but right now there is no way to shut casters down based (safe for maybe elementalists) on energy denial as they just ride of off their regen + glyph.

I see three problems with this view. Firstly, I do not think it is correct in a factual sense. Second, even if it is indeed correct, I think it a somewhat trivial point. In the first instance I would simply disagree that casters (sans eles) cannot be edenied into shutdown. I know my monks complain a great deal about getting pleaked on their high sets (as do most any monks I imagine), and when I'm on mesmer a leak in my high set is just as brutal. I think you are mistaking the distinction between casters being able to be shutdown by the edenial on a standard utility dom bar, and casters being able to be shutdown by a solid edenial bar.

I would disagree on the contention that a solid edenial bar cannot shut a caster down. For evidence I point to QQ (the last team I recall running a straight up MWrack mesmer) who did so when GoLE was still at 15e (if memory serves). The build was in fact quite effective at shutting down pretty much anything that relied exclusively on energy. I would agree however that a dom bar packing in lots of other utility skills (diversion, shatter, mirror, inspired, pdrain, etc.) is probably not able to shut down someone purely through edenial. Where I would disagree is saying that this is a telling point. I do not particularly see why a dom bar built for a purpose besides strict edenial should still be able to entirely shut someone down with just the edenial portions of the bar.

The third problem I see is that you are mistaking your claims. You are using "GoLE is problematic" as evidence for "other emanagement should be buffed." However the former simply does not say anything about the latter. I'm not interested in why or why not GoLE is problematic (at least, it is not of relevance here irrespective of my general interest in such things), I want to know why, precisely, we should buff up emanagement in the face of all the historical problems it caused. I want to see some solid reasoning that explains to me why those problems either will go away, or are worth taking for the benefit of the buffed skills. Because, frankly, I just don't see it for myself.

Quote:

Although I don't think the suggested skillchanges will make energy denial a huge issue, but merely, a better way to deal with the energy management options.

I am uncertain how buffing up energy gaining options will make energy denial options more powerful. Would you please explain this view?

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 30, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

I much prefer the current Dom templates to the old-style energy denial ones. Diversion, P-leak, Shatter, and Humility create much more interesting choices than Burn and Surge. The only skill on the old bars I really miss are Blackout and Gale, and those have been moved out of the meta for entirely different reasons.

On the energy management side, I like skills that do something. I want to be able to bring as many skills on my bar that do something as possible. If I have to devote several caster slots to energy management, that's less skills I can bring that are actually fun to use, or win matches.

And as David says, e-denial from Power Leaks continues to win games at the high levels of play. Monks and other casters continue to run into energy problems regularly, even without denial. If Dom mesmers need anything right now, it's a strong elite choice. Their only real choices right now are E-surge (meh) and HEV (varies from sucky to game-winning based on the other team's build.)

Symbol · Oct 31, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Pleak is brutal at energy denial. Even if you only get a cast every 20 seconds is equivalent at least 24 energy down the drain (assuming the spell interrupted cost 5e). That's almost 4 pips of regen GONE, from one skill.

Energy denial is arguably more potent now than at any other time in the game's history.

Pleak is more interesting to use than surge or burn too. I don't see the problem.

Zuranthium · Oct 31, 2007, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

And as David says, e-denial from Power Leaks continues to win games at the high levels of play. Monks and other casters continue to run into energy problems regularly, even without denial. If Dom mesmers need anything right now, it's a strong elite choice. Their only real choices right now are E-surge (meh) and HEV (varies from sucky to game-winning based on the other team's build.)

Glyph of Renewal is good. I like Power Block too, although it should probably cost 10 energy rather than 15.

As for the skill changes from OP, I agree with Inspired/Revealed Hex, Power Leak, Leech Signet, and Energy Drain (although let's clarify the exact wording of the effect...should be draining 3 + Attribute Rank/2 energy).

Drain Enchant just needs a 1 second cast. Feedback should follow that pattern too (10e, 1 cast, 20 recharge). Ether Phantom should have a 15 second duration and 7 second recharge.

Skills you passed over would be Energy Tap (should have 2 sec cast, 20 recharge, and drain 1 + Attribute Rank/2 energy), Ether Lord (no "lose all energy" clause, set the degen/regen as -3/+3, change duration to 2 + Attribute Rank/2), Drain Delusions (7 second recharge), Hex Eater Signet (Nearby AOE radius and needs to be targetable), Power Leech (actually this one doesn't need much, just slightly increase steal amount to 1 + Attribute Rank/2), and Power Flux (increase the degen amount to -3).

~Z

Vaga · Oct 31, 2007, 11:27 AM // 11:27

He want's to nerf glyph lesser and buff e-management that actually requires some thought to use, pressing glyph lesser doesn't take any skill at all and in addition to it being probably the best e-management around it also lets you cancel 10 energy skills at no cost. It would be more interesting if energy management took at least some skill to use or had more of a risk/reward aspect to it. OoB, MoRecall, Energy drain, and P-Drain just to name a few, are all more interesting than glyph is.

You can argue energy denial is still prevalent through power leak, although really power leak probably needs to be nerfed quite a bit. I mean it serves as an interrupt but is then the best energy denial skill in the game? It denies more energy than some skills that's only use is e-denial. If anything power leak makes dom mesmer bars less interesting because you ALWAYS have it on your bar because it's so good. Whilst it does promote 'skillful' play, interrupting isn't really the pinnacle of skill and really shouldn't be considered so highly considering the way all the servers work in GW. For example you could have the best reflexes in America but have 200 ping and be worse at interrupting than someone with average reflexes and 100 ping, that's a realistic advantage people have that they can't do anything about.

I do agree though that it would be difficult to make energy denial take much skill and interrupts are probably as skillful as they can get it to take

In terms of 'supercharging' skill bars I'd say glyph lesser does that more than when you had to spread your attributes around so that you had some decent energy management. Glyph still isn't properly balanced, the ability to cancel 10-15 energy spells at no cost should probably be considered more when balancing the skill.

I do agree though that it would be difficult to make energy denial take much skill and interrupts are probably as skillful as they can get it to take. Maybe energy denial doesn't even need to be buffed and rather just that energy management needs to be changed so it takes skill to use. Basically more micro is good for the game, so the more thought it takes to manage your energy the better the competitive game will be.